Food, Farm, and Family: How to Cultivate a Life of Pure Joy

Ian Knauer: Food's wonderful. It's the kind of thing that connects people, whether you're rich or poor or black or white, it doesn't matter. Everybody has to eat and everybody can find the joy in food.

Alison Woo: Welcome to the Zest for More podcast. I'm Alison Woo and we're two former communications colleagues and who found ourselves asking a lot of the same questions.

Gwynne Oosterbaan: where we're all about finding joy beyond the job. I'm Susan Wu. And I'm Gwynne Oosterbaan. Like, how do I cook outside of my job? How do I have enough time to cook? And what can you also do besides cooking? I'm just previewing what we're going to talk about now with our guest that Alison's about to introduce.

Alison Woo: Well, we're putting a lot of the questions that we had asked on the side of our job front and center. we're thrilled to be joined today with Ian Knauer, who is the former test chef, recipe developer, and global food explorer at Gourmet Magazine. Their longtime editor, Ruth Reichl, described Ian as superlative. Ian, huge kudos. ⁓ when Conde Nast abruptly shuttered the magazine in 2009, Ian ⁓ to his Pennsylvania roots. He started, wrote a cookbook. He called the farm, he started a PBS show, and now he has set up the ultimate food to table journey with an amazing farm and a cooking school in beautiful Solebury, Pennsylvania, where he is today. And that's called the Roots to River Farm. Ian, welcome to the show.

Ian Knauer: Thanks. for having me.

Gwynne Oosterbaan: And we just heard a little bit of the intro and the name drop of Ruth Reichl And we know that that's a name that kind of can move careers. And you with us in an earlier conversation that you made a pivot ⁓ finance to food. Can you give us just like the super brief overview? And what was that like to go from something that you studied, which is so different to what you do right now?

Ian Knauer: Sure. So I went to college and studied ⁓ international business. And then when I graduated, I thought that I needed to have a job that was directly related to that. So I got a Series 7 license and I became a stockbroker. And I worked on and around Wall Street for about a year and a half and hated every second of it. And to sort of like find release and find, you know, my sanity, I would cook. And I started taking some professional cooking lessons. And then I quit being a stockbroker and was just trying to figure out what to do. I met Ruth when she was still at the New York Times as the critic there. But I met her because I got a part time job picking up her son from school and taking him home and helping him with his homework while Ruth was out eating at the best restaurants in the world and then writing about them. And she would get home late, of course, and Nick was already in bed. And I would have read volumes and volumes of the cookbooks in her collection and stack them up and ask her all sorts of questions when she came home. And we just sort of hit it off. ⁓ And then that job ended. And a few months later, she got the job as the editor of Gourmet Magazine. And she called me and said, you you've been thinking about cooking professionally. Why don't you take a look and see what a test kitchen looks like? And so I went in and she gave me a little tour and I met the food editors who were already working there and convinced them that they should hire me to test the recipes in the magazine because I hadn't been to culinary school. So I would make all the mistakes that their readers made. And they fell for it. They gave me the job and I worked there for the next almost 10 years.

Gwynne Oosterbaan: That seems so fearless to be that gutsy to say like, just hire me because I what I don't know. What did you learn about yourself in that process?

Ian Knauer: You know, I'm sort of a lucky person in general, but the ability to recognize a lucky situation and take a leap of faith is also an important step in being lucky. If you find yourself at the right place in the right time and you don't do anything about it, then you lose the luck. And so I was lucky to have been in the right place in the right time and I recognize that and I feel really grateful that I did recognize it and came up with a way to harness that luck.

Alison Woo: Well, over the nine years that you were there, you had some pretty iconic adventures. Could you give us a sample of what some of them were?

Ian Knauer: Sure. One of the amazing perks of that job is that they would send all the food editors on a trip every year. And some of the trips were just eating trips. But my trip specifically, because it was a learning position for me, had to be an educational trip. And so every year I would go somewhere in the world and learn with some great cook or baker their craft. So I learned ⁓ French bread from a French baker. And I went to Mexico to learn Mexican cuisine and I went to Hong Kong to learn Cantonese. And it was really an amazing part to the job. And then as I sort of grew in that job, I started writing for the magazine and writing for the website and working on the cookbooks and the TV shows. And I was writing, this is a funny anecdote. I was writing a story with another editor about a halal slaughterhouse in Queens. And we went out to the slaughterhouse and we interviewed the owner and we picked out a a goat and they started it for us and we, you know, stood there in the slaughterhouse for an hour while they skinned it and gutted it and that sort of thing. And then they put it in a big black plastic bag. It was still warm and gave it to us. And we took a cab back to the Conde Nast building, which at that point was in Times Square with the goat. This is all part of the story. We were going to then cook the goat and have a picnic in the park and invite our friends and which we did all that. As we got to the Conde Nast building, you you check in with your ID and you get through security and it was 11 o'clock or so. So most everybody was already where they were supposed to be. So it was sort of empty. The elevator bank was empty. So we stood there with our warm goat in a bag, stinking like a slaughterhouse. the elevator opened, we went in, it was me, the other editor and the goat. And as the doors are starting to close, there's like a hand that comes and opens the door and this disheveled assistant with like three lattes and six folders walks in and behind her, walks Anna Wintour and the door is closed. And the smell of a dead goat filled, completely permeated the elevator and Anna Wintour, the devil herself, like goes like backs into the corner like this, shaking. And so finally we get to the fourth floor where the test kitchen is where the door is open and we leave with a warm goat in the bag. And it's one of its hosts as we're leaving pops out of the bag, just like wave at Anna Wintour, so. So that was a fun little thing that happened.

Alison Woo: I hope that makes it in the Devil Wears Prada 2.

Ian Knauer: Well, has written about it in her books. ⁓ So it's a story that she's told again and again.

Alison Woo: ⁓ my goodness. expect to that in Anna's own memoir as well of her condon-assed years at whatever time she leaves. So it must have been pretty traumatic then when the magazine closed so quickly. How did you handle that? How did you handle that transition coming out of that? Because it was very sudden and it was very emotional and you have pivoted though to an incredible life in Pennsylvania thereafter. How did you do?

Ian Knauer: It was really shocking. went in on a Monday, and Ruth said everybody needs to come into the conference room. We're all fired. And by the next day, we had to be out of the building. You know, one of the things that I really was able to cultivate while I was there for so long is connections and also just skills. And so I had learned how to write recipes and develop them. And I had learned how to write ⁓ copy and learned how to write head notes and learned how to write cookbooks. I had learned how to write TV shows. and I had all the connections from Gourmet. And so my first cookbook, I had the same agent as Gourmet had because I knew Doe. And so I could call her up and say, hey, Doe, I have an idea for a cookbook. And she was able to pitch it to the editor who did the Gourmet books and they bought the book at Houghton Mifflin. And so it was really incredible that I had those connections. I may not have been able to sell the same book without those connections. And so, you know, once again, like I was lucky. to have those connections and was able to utilize them and therefore produce what I think was a really good book and several books since then and a great show. And those things then led to, those things built an audience for me. People had read the book, they had seen the show, they, know, they, I would actually get a lot of mail in those days. People would write to me, write me letters and say, ⁓ this book reminded them of their family and that sort of thing. And so I sort of grew this following and needed a place where they could come. and experience what I was experiencing on the farm. So I looked around, I moved back to Pennsylvania to the New Hope area and was looking around for a farm where I could have a cooking school. Found one in Stockton, started there, moved a couple of years later to Titusville where we had a great experience on Gravity Hill Farm. And now we're at Roots to River Farm, which has been in existence in this place for 13, 14 years. ⁓ And most recently we were able to open up a market space, which also has a ⁓ certified kitchen in it and we can do dinners. my wife is the farmer, she grows all the produce and I get to cook it. And so it's sort of this natural progression from sort of the food media world to the food food world. And like really the beginnings of it leading to the final plates. It's really, it's fun.

Gwynne Oosterbaan: was there last Wednesday on your market day and it was bustling with people at every generational kind of point in their lives. were older parents and grandparents looking after little kids. They might've been some of your kids, but there was just like a kind of wonderful creative chaos happening in the room around all of the people who were gathered. had such a warm feeling of community. I loved it. What is it like to work with your spouse and what is it like to actually construct a family run business?

Ian Knauer: Yeah, because my spouse is the person that she is, it's lovely, it's wonderful. It doesn't mean it's not hard work, of course it's hard work, but I think anything worth doing is hard work. We have a really ⁓ very interesting dynamic because she's an expert at what she does. And I'm an expert at what I do and they're different things, although they are related. And so I don't drive the tractors, don't maintenance the tractors. I have no idea how to create a ⁓ seed sowing schedule or a harvest schedule. have any idea to do that. And I don't presume to tell her or think that I know better than her. I don't. sort of vice versa is true in the kitchen. You know, she hands me this beautiful produce and says, just go. And so I go. And ⁓ so we have our very distinct ⁓ areas of expertise and we really respect each other and each other's autonomy. So that I think is important, at least in our relationship. And it works great. It's really fun. You know, my kitchen crew, loves to go once in a while and work on the farm. And the farm crew loves to come once in a while and work in the kitchen. So we have that crossover too. ⁓ And so what that leads to is a group dynamic that where everybody respects ⁓ and really holds up on a pedestal what the other part of the organism does, the organization does. And so that's one thing that makes us really unique here. We have young kids. So their involvement is really just sort of, hanging out at this point, but I suspect that as they get a little older, they'll want to be involved too, whether it's on the farm side or on the kitchen side. And just like Malka and I, I'm sure that they'll gravitate toward what feels good to them. And so we have lots of opportunity for them to get their hands dirty.

Gwynne Oosterbaan: Yeah, but just kind of one last kind of double click question, which is around the aperitif that you and Malika invented. There's a origin story behind it. Could you share that briefly and then talk about what it's like to also just serve ⁓ alcohol so that grownups can come and have a good kind of date night time when they're either taking a class or just watching you guys cook.

Ian Knauer: Sure. years ago, maybe 15 or 20, I got to go to Barcelona. while I was in Barcelona, I was introduced to the tradition of vermut, which is in the afternoon, you stop working, you have a glass of ⁓ usually bittersweet vermouth on the rocks, and you talk to your community and your neighbors who are also drinking a glass of this stuff, and you eat salty things like olives and anchovies. And I thought, well, that's such a fun drinking culture. And the drink itself is so unique, it's you don't mix it with anything. It's not like vermouth that we have here where you just dust it over martini. It's like you have a glass of it and it's a really social hour. And I just fell in love with the whole concept. can't, know, a couple of years later, Malaika came back from a farmer's market with a case of radicchio that no one had bought. And she, as she often does, she handed it to me and said, it's not going to make it till next week. Can you do anything with this? Can you preserve it? How do we how do we turn it into something we can sell? And I thought, well, you know, that's bitter. And this wine, this aperitif wine is bitter. And so maybe, maybe I could make it out of radicchio. Traditionally, you use gentian root or wormwood, but I tried it with radicchio and it totally worked. Like first time out of the gate, it was delicious. And I've been sort of tweaking it and honing it since then. It's been over a decade. And now we have a winery license and we make this aperitif wine, this aperitivo. with the radicchio that Malike grows and a bunch of other herbs like chamomile and thyme and sage. And it's this bittersweet, really lovely drink. It's almost like a cocktail in a bottle. You don't have to mix it with anything. We just pour it over ice. We have a tasting room and now that's open at least the first Saturday of every month and more frequently now that we're getting into nicer weather. And we do a little small food menu. So we have these small salty snacks, just like you would in Spain, except we have potatoes that we grow. So we make potato chips. We ferment potato chips and make that as example. And so we do these small plates of vegetable forward dishes and we drink the aperitivo and it's really fun. We just got a swing set today. It came in. One of the things that happens as you, as you notice is that like there are kids everywhere on when we're open for the market and they're eating pizza and they're running around and now they can go sit at the swing set. play on the swing set and their parents can sit at a picnic table with a glass of aperitivo and watch their kids and eat salty snacks and it's really it's a fun it's a fun thing because all the neighbors show up and get to talk with each other.

Gwynne Oosterbaan: Awesome.

Alison Woo: Sounds incredible and a wonderful space for community to come together. So another place you're creating community is in your cooking school. And Gwen and I had the very wonderful treat of coming and taking a knife skills class, something I've been wanting to do forever. I'm curious, what is it for you, like for about teaching others? What is the joy that you find from that? Do you ever find it difficult treating, you know, teaching complete novices?

Ian Knauer: No, ⁓ I prefer teaching novices because they don't have bad habits. And knife skills is a great example of, know, if you're cooking at home and you've never been formally taught how to hold your knife, you probably have some bad habits. And so it's harder to break those bad habits and then relearn. And so kids are really fun to teach knife skills to because they listen and they pay attention. I've never had a kid cut themselves, knock on wood. But there's always some adult that will cut themselves because they have these bad habits in the knife skills class. I find such joy in teaching. because there's so much to know and I learn a lot from the students and there's a moment, it happens in every class and it doesn't happen with every student, but it happens at least once in every class where somebody just like gets it and you see it click for them. And they just like, all of a sudden they're like, oh, ah, now I get it. And their knife skill, know, for instance, their knife skills are eternally better now that they get it, you know, and they're faster and they're safer and for the rest of their cooking lives. they will be better at it because of this one moment where it clicked for them. And that's just magic. It's so fun to see people come to life like that, watch that spark happen as they get it. It's really, it's lovely.

Alison Woo: I can be your testimony. People here last night were dazzled by my knife skills.

Ian Knauer: Amazing, you've been practicing, that's great.

Alison Woo: So thank you. I'm curious, given that you were at Gourmet at really a zenith of its popularity, what do you think now about the explosion of food media and how so many celebrities and it's become just a part of the culture of zeitgeist to cooking, et cetera? What do you think this means for home cooks everywhere? And what place or outlet do you ever suggest to people who want to become a better home cook?

Ian Knauer: Coming up in food media, I love food media. ⁓ I love the proliferation of personalities in food media. know, Chrissy Teigen has some great cookbooks. In fact, I got to test some of the recipes for her for some of her cookbooks. And she's like this huge personality who loves food. And that's great. know, the more of that, the better because food's wonderful. And it's the kind of thing that connects people. ⁓ whether you're rich or poor or black or white, it doesn't matter. Everybody has to eat and everybody can find the joy in food. The more we talk about it and eat and cook together, the better, as far as I'm concerned. Somebody who really wants to learn a lot, I love America's Test Kitchen. I think they have been doing and continue to do great work and they're really a learning media group. So I would start there ⁓ and go from there.

Gwynne Oosterbaan: And you shared a little bit around how much effort it took to get this latest incarnation of your farm to table to cooking class to now organic vegetable farm like off the ground. What did you learn about yourself in terms of the patience that was required to have that long lead times and it's so different from making a meal where you do it in a few, you know, and hopefully like an hour or less, it's optimal. this was like Give us the facts around the time frame and then what did you learn, you know, both as a couple and then running a business and thinking about what the effort required.

Ian Knauer: It took a lot more effort than we ever expected. We got very lucky in so much that we found some incredibly generous investors who believed in the project and still do. And we were able to recognize that stroke of luck as well. You know, we have been lucky that we've been surrounded by incredible people who want to support projects like this and, you know, standing by with them through the process of getting this approved and built. took five and a half years to get the final approvals. done from start to finish and that's a long time to wait around tenacity is super important if you have something that you that you really want to do and it's your goal you you can never ever ever give up on it and there were many times when both like and I felt like that was the only thing we could do is give up and we didn't and it worked in the end so like I'm grateful for her to like convincing me not to quit when I wanted to and she's. The same is true with her when she was like, let's do something. Let's go get a job in corporate America. was like, no, we can't. We have to do this project. And so we helped each other. We supported each other to get through it. And again, our investors were just so generous and really believed in the project also. And without that, we wouldn't have been able to do it either.

Gwynne Oosterbaan: It's amazing how much you leaned on each other and you had that those folks who had your back from the get-go. So when you look ahead, so that was five years of getting to where you are now. If you could fast forward five years, where do you guys think you'd like to be and what is your vision for Roots to River?

Ian Knauer: That's a great idea and we're still trying to figure that out. I think the beginnings that we have seen here, we've only been open for nine months and it's really starting to come together. There's a cohesive structure between the farm and the kitchen that is developing not only naturally and organically, but also intentionally. Some of that is with the crossover between the folks who work on the farm and the folks who work in the kitchen. Some of that is just like cooking the food really well and you applying the technique that we know in the kitchen and applying the technique that Malika knows in the fields. And a lot of that, and then there's a third component of the community where, you know, there was a lot of trepidation from the immediate neighbors where they thought, ⁓ the traffic is going to be terrible. And we're going to have, you know, people drinking a pair of Tivo's stumbling onto the streets. And none of that's happening, of course. And what has happened is those neighbors are then are now showing up to pizza night and saying, you ⁓ this is actually great. And They're meeting their neighbors and sort of this globe of communities expanding and expanding and expanding away from the kitchen. But the kitchen is the core of it and the farm is the core of it. And so that's naturally happening. I think just seeing that grow and build is what we'd like to continue to do.

Alison Woo: So two things, because one, you we saw during COVID that cooking kept people together. I'm just curious right now, these times are a little bit unsure and there's a bit of chaos in the outside world. What are you seeing about the importance of community and having places like Roots to River Farm that's actually bringing people together?

Ian Knauer: sure I mean it's it's so important we very intentionally have tables here that fit 12 people. We don't have 2 tops we don't have 4 tops we have 12 tops and in Italy there's a word for that is called top of that which means a lot of things it means more than just a big table it means a big table but a big table that is a communal table where there's shared food and where there's shared experience and you know the neighbors come together at this table and that's. really important and it's something that we don't do anymore because we're just scrolling you know that's all we're all doing and to be able to sit down with 11 people that you don't know and share a meal changes your relationship to those people fundamentally because we all have to eat and you know we don't go around the table and say you know how did you vote because it doesn't matter when you're sitting at that table what matters is you know how are you eating how is your health how is your family how are your kids how your parents. You know, and so that's what we talk about. And that's sort of what the natural conversation turns into when people who don't know each other sit down and share a meal together. And that's just how we do it here. You know, there's no opportunity to sit by yourself. Even if you're sitting at the bar, you have a person on either side of you and you're looking at me in the kitchen and I'm talking to you and asking you how you, how your life is, how you do it. And so I think it starts there and you're right. You know, we're in such a divisive time and it is intentionally divisive. through apps and programs and politics. And they're trying to split us up. And what we have to do is not let that happen. And the easiest way to do that is through food. I love that.

Alison Woo: It seems like your life is rather blissful, so it seems curious that I'm gonna ask you, what do you do to get more zest out of your life? And where do you find your joy behind your job? Beyond your job.

Ian Knauer: beyond my job. I love my job and if I didn't have these other things to distract me, I would do it all the time. But I also love my wife and I love spending time with her and I love my kids. We have two kids together and they're just absolutely precious ⁓ little things. We have a five-year-old and a one and a half-year-old and they're just so full of life and zest and joy and the... the little boy, he's one and a half, loves to, he has a little stand next to me in the kitchen so he can like stir pots and he'll stir the pot. he's, know, he really has to focus on it. And then he'll realize what he's doing. He'll look at me and go like, and it just like, he's full of joy for stirring this pot. ⁓ And yeah, so like between my family and my parents are still alive and healthy. And so I love spending time with them. I love being outside with my family. I love cooking and eating and drinking and being alive. Is that enough?

Alison Woo: That's a beautiful life. It's a very beautiful life. Do you ever think about your legacy about how living the life you are creating, both you and Malika, what legacy that's going to leave for your children?

Ian Knauer: It's an interesting question. Probably be just because I'm sort of like in it right now. You know, we have a one-year-old and a five-year-old. And so like, we're just trying to get through the day most of the time. What I hope that it gives them is the understanding that if you do what you love, you will be happy. And it doesn't matter what that is, as long as it makes you happy. And so I hope that that is the example that they can take away from that and also eat really good food.

Gwynne Oosterbaan: So I'm going to talk about when you're not eating. One other thing, I think you have a side gig where you take advantage of the geographical location and proximity to the river. Can you talk about how you, like when you need time alone, like what do you do? Where do you go and how do you find that?

Ian Knauer: Yeah, I swim for exercise and in the winter I go to an indoor pool and I swim laps. And in the summer on nice days, ⁓ we, we live right on the river. And so I'll take a pair of goggles and I'll walk across the street and I'll wade into like up to here. And then I'll point myself up river and I'll just swim. And I stop when I get tired, which is usually about half a mile, except I don't go anywhere because I'm swimming in one place, ⁓ because I'm swimming up river. And so like about 20, 24 minutes, I'll get tired enough that I'll just stand up and then my swim is over for the day. ⁓ and you know, it's a lovely, it's a beautiful river and it's a really fun way to just sort of, you know, zone out and just think about my breathing. Just go one, two, breathe one, two, three, breathe.

Gwynne Oosterbaan: All right, I think you should do classes in that. I would be maybe bold enough to sign up. Does it help you stay creative? And does it like being physical, does that like activate the creative kind of juices that you need to have in when you're inventing new recipes?

Ian Knauer: I think it helps me stay focused, know, exercise has my body has always needed to move and when I was younger I used to run and now my knees and hips don't like that anymore. So swimming is a great ⁓ option for me at this point in my life and I would recommend it for everybody. think you know moving even if you're going for a walk, ⁓ I think it helps with the rest of your life.

Alison Woo: Is there a recipe that you've made that you turned out to be a complete disaster that you're like, is my terrible story I don't like to share, or that turned into something amazing that was not on your menu?

Ian Knauer: Both of those things have happened so many times that I can't keep track of them. ⁓

Alison Woo: I will say I'm a huge fan of your carrot rum raisin ice cream from your farm cookbook. I've made that and it's glorious.

Ian Knauer: Ice cream is one of my favorite things to make because it is one of my favorite things to eat. ⁓ And I love making custards. I love the physicality of making custards. I love the fact that you can't really walk away from them and have it work. Ice cream is a good example. If you walk away from ice cream at the wrong time, you end up with scrambled eggs. And I love to be in that sort of flow state where I'm just stirring until the custard is 180 degrees. And when it's perfect, perfect ice cream is the best thing you can eat. It's so good. And so to be able to make that from scratch with eggs and cream and sugar and salt is just so fun for me. I've screwed it up many times. I've made scrambled eggs. I've overturned it in the ice cream machine. I've forgotten to add the sugar one time and I was eating it, it took a bite and I was like, this is terrible. And so, know, I make a lot of mistakes and all cooks do. If you're cooking a lot, you're making lot of mistakes. And that's really the best way to learn is to keep making mistakes.

Alison Woo: the amazing places to learn is the Roots River Farm and the Cooking School. Can you tell everybody where they can find out more about signing up for classes and how they can come visit you in the amazing, taste this amazing amara?

Ian Knauer: You can find everything you need to know at RootstoRiverFarm.com. You will be able to find out about the Amara and the cooking classes and the dinners that we do in the tasting room and the CSA shares if you want to cook these wonderful vegetables at your home too.

Gwynne Oosterbaan: And I can say as a frequent visitor to the location, because I am literally steps away from it happily, it is worth the trip from New York. is only 90 minutes or less, and it is a gorgeous part of the country and it is only becoming like more and more appreciated. So this spring and summer, we hope a lot of people are inspired by this. If they're not already hungry at the end of this episode, they are like trying to figure out where they can, where they can stay in New Hope and then come and take a class. on a weekend and I really hope you're gonna do an ice cream making class after this conversation.

Ian Knauer: Well, now we have to. That's a great idea. Can you see? Yeah, let's do rhubarb ice cream. That sounds amazing. With strawberry topping.

Gwynne Oosterbaan: You there? rhubarb one? I love it.

Alison Woo: I love that. Thank you, Ian, so much for your time and for your most delicious and inspiring.

Ian Knauer: Such a pleasure to talk with you both.

Gwynne Oosterbaan: It was. It's also great to hear from someone that we know and we've been in his cooking space and met his family. So just having the layers of understanding of who he is and his story and then talking to him in the wonderful space that's Roots to River was really fun to be able to do. What did you kind of take away from the conversation with him?

Alison Woo: Yeah, it's funny because I met him through my friend Dan Macy who introduced me to him because he knew him in his work as a food stylist and Ian's most famous recipe at Gourmet was bacon meatloaf. And I said, why haven't we eaten that? And Danny went to the market to go get the ingredients, the new oak and met him there and said, hey, I'm making bacon meatloaf. So the world is very small, even though you think it's big. The part that I love the most was really about this whole notion of community and food and community and how bringing people together can really transform lives. I think that is so true. And we've lost this essence of dinner parties, home parties, and I really feel a calling to recreate that more and more in my life. And hopefully now that it's spring, we can do that now that people can get out of their house and just be outside. What was your takeaway from all of this?

Gwynne Oosterbaan: Well, putting out like the business and the work hat, which is we always are swapping our hats here with the joy and the job. If I put on the job hat, I think what I was really struck by was how he talked about following his instincts and taking this leap and then knowing how to convert luck into opportunity. the phrase he used of like, I, you I was lucky I was, I met with Rykel, but like I acted on it and then I kept doing it. And he knew that he didn't love working at Wall Street. And I know lots of people who love working in finance and like love numbers and love the excitement and the thrill of that because I worked with many of them. But it was great to hear Ian say like, and I recognized right away, I didn't love it and I should be doing something else. So I think that sort of recognition of your own feelings and then converting opportunity and knowing how to make the most of everything that came along the way, whether it was great, like opening the door with Ruth or like when the door closed. figuring out what they were gonna do next. So that kind of improvisational gene seemed to have kicked in really strongly and I loved hearing him talk about that.

Alison Woo: Totally. Well, that's it for this episode of Zest for More. So if you are interested in what are the other episodes, you can log on to zestformore.com and you can subscribe on Apple and Spotify podcasts and anywhere you get to listen to your podcasts. So that wraps up this first half season one. ⁓ Stay tuned next month for more episodes season two. Gwynne, thanks so much. ⁓

Gwynne Oosterbaan: Thank you, Alison.