Finding Joy by Saying Yes to the Unknown

speaker-0: Welcome to the Zest for More podcast.

speaker-1: where we are all about finding joy beyond your job.

speaker-0: I'm Gwen Osteron.

speaker-1: And I'm Allison Wu. We're two former communications colleagues and friends who actually found ourselves asking a lot of the same questions.

speaker-0: Like how to stay connected with work friends in genuine ways. And how do you create events that actually like really connect people and they have the right amount of fun and spectacle, but they're also really cool and authentic.

speaker-1: So in our zest for more work, we're also delving into how to design meaningful connections. I love hosting cook the book dinners or even going bigger with showstopping get togethers at Jane Austen conferences, but always with the goal of bringing people closer together.

speaker-0: Her next guest, Sherry Rosen, is an expert at designing conversations just like those that are somehow both showstopping and intimate for many people. And she's done it a lot in the healthcare community, which is how we got to know her. I also learned that she's a huge fan of theater, not surprising given her day job. But what surprised her a bit, and we're gonna talk a little bit more today, is how she recently turned this kind of side passion of loving theater and plays and musicals. into a credited producer role on an upcoming new rock opera, Ben Franklin. It's called Sound of America. So we can't wait to hear more about that. Welcome.

speaker-2: Sherry. Thank you so much. It's so great to be here with you both.

speaker-1: So, Sherry, I'm gonna just kick off this first question with this. You have been a longtime host and the organizer of the Forbes Healthcare Conference, right? Which has been an absolute must-attend event in the healthcare industry for many years. ⁓ in times of working and running of events for a different range of clients, whether it's startups or health, wellness, health tech, tell us how you got into health events and what drew you into the space to begin with.

speaker-2: My journey in events is much longer than healthcare events, but you know, I will start with the fact that I have always been interested in healthcare and how the the mind and the body work together. I my father's an oncologist, and ⁓ I w actually went into school studying ⁓ college, studying biology and psychology. And, you know, until organic chemistry hit, I had every intention of actually going into medicine. So it's a long-winded way of saying it was ⁓ it was it was something that was always on my radar. The conversations about healthcare around the dinner table. I was at Forbes in-house for five and a half years, then went out on my own with a business partner and did all sorts of events, media and technology, financial events, even some random events on things like estuaries, bodies of water. So I I really delved into like lots of different things. I spearheaded the Forbes 400 Summit on Philanthropy. And was doing that as a consultant along with other projects. That ⁓ Matt Herper at the time was the healthcare editor of Forbes. And he just brought me in as just an outside consultant to bring in new names, names that had nothing to do with healthcare, just because of my experience on some of the other Forbes events that I was doing. This was back in 2016, so he's amazing. He's over at Stat now. And you know, he ⁓ he really had it covered on the biotech. ⁓ you know, angle. So I brought in people like John Doerr, who was doing, you know, doing investment in healthcare, and ⁓ John Arnolds, who had a lot to say about drug pricing in healthcare. So it was a little bit of a backdoor into doing the healthcare summit. ⁓ and then when he left, I took it over and just reframed it with my own different expertise. I don't have the background that that that Matt does, but really brought in the whole. Thesis that I bring to all of my healthcare events now, which it's about the connections, the mind-body connections, and everybody should be in the business of healthcare from an individual standpoint, from a business standpoint, the health of a business, the health of the employees of a business, and also from a societal standpoint. So my premise was that it really touches all individuals. So when looking at healthcare, we have to bring in all of these. It we have to bring in the artists, we have to bring in the creatives, we have to bring in people in fintech who've like been ahead of healthcare. I mean, healthcare is it's it's very, very siloed, and I think if you don't bring all of these different viewpoints and aspects together, you really can't move the needle on a problem that's you know that really needs to be fixed.

speaker-0: You're bringing all these big names together, you're curating conversations, you're thinking about these interesting mashups. What's the best part about that as a job? And like what's the weirdest or hardest or strangest kind of thing you've ever had to do that pushed you out of your comfort zone in the context of running some of those events?

speaker-2: I would say like it's it's all perfect when you're brainstorming and you're coming up with the ideas and exactly how you want the flow to go. And then you put people in the mix and you know, someone's has a schedule and then you're flipping things around. so it's all I mean, I think just for it's it's very interesting. I just kind of fell into doing this and it's you know 25 years later. But I always think about the fac I always have a plan A, B, C, and D. And it all goes out the window, but I think if you're organized, you're able to like think on your feet and pick up the pieces. I do all aspects of the event, but most of the stuff that I've focused on is really curating the conversations as you said in the content, pairing different people, taking people from two different industries, people who are partnering, coming up with very weird combinations of putting people on stage together. That's the stuff that you don't read about in the papers, right? ⁓ and that's the stuff that's magic. That people are coming, I really think, for the experience, what gets them in the room. But I think the real interesting thing is the conversations that happen off of the stage. It's the partnerships that I've seen, you know, it's the friendships that I've seen built, deals that are made. So Those are the things that I think are really, really special. And it becomes a community. They talk about it. ⁓ and they, you know, they want to be at the next one. You just roll with the punches. And I think that from my perspective, it's really once I get on site, I'm actually pretty relaxed because I've done all of that work and all that ABC planning before. So it's a very odd job for someone like me who's like fully type A and like wants to have control over everything because you have control over nothing, you know. So but those but those are so you know, some of the things like your flipping sessions, those are the some of the most, you know, unscripted moments or the best moments. No.

speaker-0: And then you're now working for yourself. So we and you mentioned getting out of your own comfort zone. What else have you learned about yourself? Maybe as much kind of in your independent, like self self-perpetuating part of your life, like less out of ⁓ the Forbes connection, but on your own, what else have you learned about how you work and what you also need when you're not working?

speaker-2: When I think about like the name of this podcast, and I was really thinking about it before I came on, I think for years I thought joy was something that I would get to once like after the work was all finished. And now I think joy is the fuel that actually allows me to do the work. You know, going to an Andrea Bacelli concert and seeing this artist paint to him on stage, and then, you know, it's it's it's all sort of abstract and then he flips the painting. And all of a sudden it's on Andrea Bocelli's, you know, portrait. And then literally sitting, you know, I was actually sitting next to a c a former colleague, and she looked at me and she's like, You're gonna do something like that at your event. So it's like it's it's where the inspiration and the ideas come from. I was super lucky. I have I had an amazing business partner. We were together sixteen years, and then I've been two years, she stepped she she stepped away from the business, and ⁓ I've been on my own. But you know, work was really the center of my life. And what I learned is that the things outside of work, whether it's, you know, health, family, friendships, curiosity, spirituality, they're they're not distractions from the work. They're actually what make the work meaningful it's what makes the work meaningful. And it's I as I reflect, it's funny because several years ago, I would not have been the right person for a podcast about joy. Because I was exhausted, I was nearing burnout, and work was really my identity. But the shift really happened. It wasn't that I stopped working hard, I still worked just as hard. It's when work stopped being everything. And so, you know, I have all of these other things now, and it's the things outside of work that make me better as a person and also make my work better. So, ⁓ and and they give me the inspiration, you know, to kind of Come up with the ideas, but I feel like I'm in a place now to talk about it. And joy for me is actually surprisingly simple. It's really these little micro moments. It's I wake up with so much energy. I'm like excited to do my morning routine. ⁓ you know, workouts are non-negotiable. It's just having a simple meal with a friend, right? It's seeing a performance that's really inspirational, that gives me ideas for something else. Time with friends, family, travel. It's it's all of these little things. It's almost the hardest thing, but it's pausing and being present. And it that is really the hardest practice that I know. But most of us are actually living in the, you know, living in the future. Or sort of rehashing or, you know, rehearsing the past. And we're not really, you know, the life we actually want is happening now. And it's just really moving too fast for us to notice it. Everything for me, I think when you have your own business, it all ends up being very interconnected. So it was hard for me for many years to separate all of these things. So I didn't have joy because it was I was always going and it was like, you know, I I said yes to everything and I I just you know, I c I kept going and now it's like joy is having a boundary. Joy is saying no.

speaker-1: ⁓ Sherry, let's just dig into that a little bit more because so interesting. I think people have this feeling that h if you can control your own time, then you have time and space for this type of balance, right? How much of that was you being able to set the boundaries versus if you were still within a job in a traditional job, right? Working for an employer, do you feel like you would have been you would have felt self empowered to have created those boundaries as well? Right. Because I think sometimes we have entrepreneurs who are like, I thought I was gonna have more time for myself. Actually I'm working ninety hour weeks, yeah, you know, rather than sixty. But let's talk a little bit about that because I think especially for women, balance is always that word people talk about, but it doesn't always come in that time and space. And then also how much have you been able to in infuse more joy in your work because you do control your own agenda.

speaker-2: Yeah, I mean, I think for me it's been an evolution. I think like when I first left Forbes, I was terrified because it just it just happened. I was there for five and a half years. It was great. I had 25 events, you know, that I were under me or I was working on. I happened to meet my business partner. She was running the CEO events in Asia and I had US, Europe, and then we went I went into the Middle East as well. And I was kind of I was lost. I was looking around for I didn't think I wanted to do events anymore. And she actually said to me, you know, you're very good at what you do. You should do it for yourself. And I'd actually never thought about it. Like it was not even like, ⁓ I want to go start my own business or this is what I should be doing. And she was moving, she was living in in Hong Kong at the time, and she was moving to the to New York and she said, and I'll do it with you. I'm getting I have my green card moving with my husband. So it was a very strange thing because I do believe things happen. For a reason. And I believe that there's a purpose and you know there's a path for people. But yeah, I just, it was one of those things I didn't really give it much thought. And I just said, okay, let's do it. And then about six months later, the conference division shut down. So the timing was super fortuitous for me on multiple levels. That first year was not easy. But you know, in the first few years of the business were not easy. People are very generous with their support. And I said to a friend of mine, a who I went to college with, I said, I don't I'm I'm really concerned that I'm not gonna be able to do this because I'm used to going to a place every day. I'm used to having the structure. I'm a very disciplined person. I would say five years ago when I felt like I was espousing, like I have all this freedom, I wasn't actually even really, I didn't understand what it was. I think for me, working for myself was more of an obligation because it's like I have, you know, we had other people, you know, on our teams, you know. ⁓ depending on our projects, I just felt like I always needed to be on and I didn't have boundaries with people. They would message me like 10 o'clock at night and I would be responding. I had to really figure out how do I structure this so I do actually have freedom. So I do take advantage, nothing is ever gonna be perfect. So I think that like I think it's it was a matter of me sort of like actually reframing in my head. I don't know that balance is really possible. when you're doing your own thing. I think it's a matter of prioritizing, setting boundaries and doing all the things. It's a continual practice to work at that.

speaker-0: Wow. So I wanna kinda tie in all those wonderful reflections and the sort of your expertise in events and where things are going for people who are at least from where we sit, it seems like there's this major uptick in interest in non-business events, like I want to be a better person. So I'm gonna do the yoga retreat or I'm gonna do the whatever and you never talked about it. Do you think that that's a reflection of where we are today that just events are now kind of more every part of our lives because we've been spending so much time online and so events are kind of coming back. Do you think that it's people thinking differently about their careers and how they network and how they retain friendships? Like what is that a blurring of that boundary, giving you several options you don't have to pick any of them. But I just would love to hear your thoughts on just events and this moment we're in right now, whether it's kind of this personal growth category or it's the work one.

speaker-2: Well I mean there are so many so many thoughts come to mind. I love that question. I think it's funny because during the pandemic, I genuinely had this thought. Like I'm like, I don't know that events are gonna survive. And I think really what happened was the opposite technology. It connects you in a way, but you're also very disconnected. So it's like the real connection happens in person. Technology didn't solve for the type of connection that people crave. That transformation happens when people are in person and connecting with one another. So I do think that like I I think that events are more prevalent than ever. There are obviously a lot of, you know, bad events that cycle out and go wayside. I think that at the same time, the wellness industry is a trillion dollar industry. And ⁓ so there's this advent of all of these, especially in New York, like new new wellness clubs and social clubs, and they all focus on different things. Some are like, you know, sort of the infrared sauna group of things, and then others are more, you know, community-led, food, front and center. So I think the uptick in wellness and people also, again, this this goes back to technology being really prevalent. People feeling like they need to sort of take a step back. from all of the technology and use these these tools to to to better themselves. You know, you need to be super targeted towards who you're doing this for and know who your audience is on a lot of these things, or else they're I started doing going through the certif certification process for ⁓ to be a health coach, but like like everybody's a a coach. So, you know, I do think that it's you know it's sort of weeding out the good and the bad, but ⁓ But yeah, people crave people are craving connection ⁓ and that time together.

speaker-1: Do you have a sense that you mentioned the pandemic, but do you do you have a sense that AI will have an impact on this now, given the proliferation of technology where we are in this moment?

speaker-2: I don't think it'll have an impact on in person events. I mean, I work on the content side of events. So I actually like I think AI is a really i is is really interesting. Like from my perspective, it's genuinely useful as a thought partner, especially for things like that, you know, that that I don't really know. but in terms of my actual writing, like I stick with myself. And ⁓ I prefer to do my own writing and I think it's I think it's better. I mean, AI doesn't have judgment, it doesn't have taste, it doesn't have discernment, it doesn't have feelings, right? So I I the things that make communication actually land, that's still entirely human. Recently with a client I coming up with themes, I went through something that was completely new to me where like they were they took some of my thoughts and then they told me, they said, ⁓ we're I'm putting it in to Claude with my memos and whatever and like, you know, sent something back to me. And I wasn't happy with that. I think it's a whole new wild world in terms of how we're going to work together with AI. It's not going anywhere and I'm not gonna go into, you know, like the fear mongering, good, bad, or indifferent. Like it's here, right? So I mean, I think you need to you need to figure out how you're gonna partner with it in in whatever sort of field you're working with, I think it you're at a disadvantage if you don't use it. But I think certain things, ⁓ at least for me, on the originality and the creative side, like I that's all like I still work through that process myself.

speaker-0: Love that answer. Allison and I constantly debate and go back and forth about to AI or not AI and where to use it and how does it help? And I've moved from like kind of curmudgeon to acceptance to trial and error to Okay, we'll never stop kind of talking about that, which is probably good because it gets people talking about we'll

speaker-2: Yeah. Sometimes if you prompt, like if you're like, what am I not thinking about? Like it com you know, like it comes back with answers and you're like, That's a good thought. Like maybe I should think about that, right? But yeah, I mean I d I do think that ⁓ engaging with the technology is the best thing that ⁓ you know, that people can do and figuring out, you know, for them how, you know, the best use case.

speaker-0: Yeah, no, I like the empower others. Can we geek out on musicals now? And I are both big buffs and Allison's been a more long standing Philly area resident than me. So I'm gonna let her talk about the the the two fifty and and where how you got sucked into that.

speaker-2: I guess like the the deeper story is actually reconnecting with something that I loved, like before like before I had a career. So I grew up doing theater. and I went to performing arts camps and I did like an immersive theater study over the summer. And then it just part of me just kind of disappeared. It it just got quieter and then I just became like part of the audience and really, you know, interested in, you know, in in in going to theater and enjoying it. And over the past few years, like it's just l listen, living in New York City, it's amazing. You have so much at your fingertips. It gives me ideas, it helps me think. And I I just I really enjoy it. So I probably go to like a few shows a month. Randall Lane, who's the chief content officer of Forbes, he's someone who I worked with for twelve years. He's brilliant, like big ideas guy. I am also big ideas, but I'm very much into like the weeds on the details and the execution. So we were a bit like yin and yang on on things, but we always came out with something that we were very proud of. ⁓ you know at the end. And so he told me two years ago he was writing this musical about Ben Franklin. I didn't think very much of it. We see each other like a few times a year and I would check in periodically. He said a friend of his, ⁓ Todd Schwartz, was doing the music. So we saw each other recently and ⁓ we actually met, we had a bite and went to ⁓ Theater, we saw Operation Mince Meat, which was very good. And I said, What's going on with the musical? He It's coming out, you know, this summer. This was probably about six weeks ago or something. So I said, Send it to me. He Yeah, I would love like you're always super honest. I definitely want your opinion on it. ⁓ and so I spent the weekend and he sent me the soundtrack along with it, twenty-three original songs. And I just went full Comment mode and I loved it. He said he really appreciated my feedback. He's like, I know you would be honest if you thought it sucked. And I'm like, it does not suck. It's like this thing really has legs. I see a lot of stuff. Very witty, vi well written, and the music is awesome. So he called me the next day and he said, Do you want to get involved? And I it's like one of those things where two years ago, like, I would have been like, I have so much on my plate. ⁓ And I just said yes. Love to. So I just got involved, you know, it's coming up. It's the run is at the fringe arts ⁓ in Philadelphia, July first to August first. total like all Philly cast. Sir Roger Daltrey of the Who has endorsed it as a, you know, as an ambassador. And all of the royalties at this run, hopefully knock on wood, there'll be more, but ⁓ will be going to Teen Cancer America ⁓ and the children's hospital Philadelphia. So ⁓ so yeah, it's ⁓ it's super exciting. I mean, I you know, listen, it's gonna be a record tourism summer, right? It's it's you know, America two fifty, it's World Cup, it's MLV, it's all starts, it's it's it's everything. You have everything kind of going on. And I think I think during that time frame, this is really the only like show that's gonna be going on. So still still work in progress on the website, but sound of america musical dot com. It's great. So tickets are like sixty five dollars. It's been great for my creativity and for using like a different part of my brain that I feel like I don't really get to exercise on a daily basis.

speaker-0: You and I've also talked about startups and the sort of like the challenge of working with startups and with them and around them. And it seems like you're also living a version of a startup when you're working on a broad broad show that you didn't anticipate doing. You kind of like, sure, I'll give feedback. Sure, okay, I'll also know help you order t-shirts and look at the website, like all these other things that are classic seemingly like patterns of startup where you're just like, okay, what what needs to be done? We're just you're just gonna figure out how to do it. Is that ⁓ affecting how you think about startups? And you know, if not, just would love to hear how you think about the startup trend right now as well.

speaker-2: I've helped a few startups launch. It's actually something I really enjoy. It's in my wheelhouse. So like after saying no a bunch of times, ⁓ like this is the beauty of like when you just finally decide, okay, I'm just gonna say yes to these things and figure it out, you know, I helped get that started and kind of like immersed myself in nuclear energy first for three months and was able to do that. So I you know, I think that the the the this with the the I I'm not as having jumped into a few of these things and like not having had a clue what I'm doing. I feel like over the years, like one of the things that I learned was just having the self-belief and the confidence that I can figure it out. Now just trying to ask the right questions, figure out who who to go to on these things. So ⁓ so yeah, I do I do enjoy that sort of I'm very curious and I enjoy learning and I enjoy figuring things out. ⁓ so I I do enjoy like startup cultures are are are super chaotic on on some level, but ⁓ but it's something that I have like over the past few years gotten involved with a few companies and that I enjoy being a part of. It's very different than working with like, you know, a a more stayed company. I think that one of the things that I've thought about a lot is. Success with founders creates a feedback problem. And so kind of what I mean by that is like the higher people rise, the fewer people around them tell them the truth. And it's something that I've sort of coined. I call it mirrorless. Like, and I do think power needs mirrors. And you know, it kind of goes back to like, you know, at a certain level, people stop reflecting back to you. And I I don't think it's because they stop. seeing it, it's they stop saying it. And and it's it's not on either side, right? Like, you know, you don't wanna piss off your boss and like, but you you're not necessarily even doing it intentionally. And so then I think that you're sort of you're putting the the the leader in the position where like filters through like many different layers. So they're not actually seeing the full picture. And that can be, you know, that can be really lonely. And then you're also in this position where you're the last to know. So I think that like One of the things that I I see is that, you know, like a good leader surrounds himself by by good people. And I think that if you even have one person and it doesn't even need to be in your organization, it like in your life who will actually tell you the truth, I think that like, you know, everything can be exponentially that much better. I think a lot of times leaders say that they want to hear the truth, but are they willing to actually sit and listen? I think that listening. Is really one of the most powerful and like, you know, best qualities in a leader. Whether they choose to follow the advice or not, it doesn't matter. It's the act of actually taking it in and listening and being open to doing that. And again, it's not just in startups, it's it's with other companies that I work with, this whole sort of like mirrorless thing where, you know, the leader is just operating in a in a place where they they're not operating with full information, but think about. how much more effective these companies could be from a cultural standpoint, right? And also from a, you know, from a bottom line standpoint. It would be sort of the the equivalent in the events world of like, you know, this is gonna be like a fire festival, like something like super explosive and like and nobody says a word and the leader goes out there and they and they think that think that there's an alignment and you're and you know, and no one wants to say anything. I think that the people who can again, surround themselves by even that one person who's gonna be like, have that difficult conversation with them. It is gonna be out of the game.

speaker-1: As a leader I'm curious, how do you prepare yourself for those difficult conversations and who's that person who speaks truth to you, Sherry?

speaker-2: It's really interesting. I have a whole load of anxieties. We could spend hours going through them, but being very direct is actually a superpower of mine. And so I think it's the benefit of being outside an organization, right? It's much more difficult if you're in the organization and you're reporting to the person. But like I you know, from my perspective, like I'm not reporting to that, you know, I mean, sure, they are my, you know, boss for all intents and purposes on the job, but my job as a consultant is to Whether they listen or not is to say the truth, is to say what I think. It you know, especially as it affects how I do my job. ⁓ and you know, and many times like I will say something and it won't be listened to, and like the outcome that I predicted happens because I've seen this movie before and I've done it before. So ⁓ so yeah, I I just that is one thing, you know, again, I think that it can be polarizing or not. I think that you know, the people that I work with, I think I'm lucky I'm in a position where like I can choose the projects that I want to do, right? And I try and align myself with people who, you know, want that type of feedback. And I think a partnership with someone who doesn't is probably might work for a short period of time, but it's probably not gonna be a long term partnership. It's just part of my DNA and who I am. But I ha you know, I'm very lucky I have family and I have a, you know, I have a few friends who will tell me the truth. And ⁓ so I'm super I'm super fortunate to have that and I wish that for everyone because I think that, you know, that is you live every day, right? I see it as the same thing as like drawing a boundary. It's like you want those people who are telling you when you're going into place where maybe you shouldn't go.

speaker-0: It's amazing. I love how you can bring that back on joy and boundary setting and then also knowing to listen to other people to give you feedback or, you know, to take it in and it's it's never easy, but knowing with that feedback.

speaker-2: To take feedback. It's really hard. But I think but I think it's great. And like, you know what? A lot of times, like, again, nobody likes feedback if it like you become defensive. I mean, I think, you know, listen, you guys are both in the business of communication. I think that's really one of the most important skills. So, you know, it just it really is. It's even if you're defensive, it's actually sitting with something and then being big enough to admit maybe I was wrong. And maybe that other person is actually has a point there. ⁓ so it's it's not an easy thing to do, but I think you're better for it.

speaker-0: That's a wonderful way to end the conversation, I think.

speaker-1: Where can people catch up with you, Sherry?

speaker-2: they can catch up with me. I'm I don't really do a lot of social media. I'm a pretty private person, but ⁓ but they can always e s you know, s shoot me an email at sherry dot rosen at interconnect dash events.com.

speaker-0: And you can see her awesome musical rock.

speaker-2: Opera. It's a rock musical, yeah.

speaker-0: Philly, and we'll definitely have a link to the website and ⁓ I know Alison and I are looking forward to seeing it ourselves in July. We can't wait.

speaker-2: Amazing. Well we'll have to organize. Maybe I'll plan like a group a a group a group trip and we can ⁓ we can get you guys backstage.

speaker-0: We we also know where we're gonna eat. Tallula's garden.

speaker-2: ⁓ okay. Well I'll have to I'll have to get some Philly restaurant suggestions from you.

speaker-0: We'll still have very long list between the two of us.

speaker-2: Amazing. Well, thank you so much. Thank you for thank you for having me. ⁓ this has been really as like as I said in the beginning, it's not something that I would have thought I would ever do. ⁓ it's taken me out of my comfort zone a little bit. ⁓ and I appreciate the opportunity to be with you guys today.

speaker-0: We loved it. Thank you so much.

speaker-2: Thank you. Bye bye. Bye.

speaker-1: So when? What did you learn from Sherry?

speaker-0: Well, I loved her kind of almost like reverse imaging around boundaries and how that related to joy and how it relates to working and talking and interacting with other people. ⁓ to sort of like knowing when to ask for the kind of reality check, ⁓ and then knowing when to set your own boundary so that you can figure out what joy really means to you. And I I just loved how open she was in And saying like she would never have done this kind of a cab podcast a few years ago. So I feel honored that we were able to convince her to to ⁓ to do it with us. There are a number of really like really awesome sound bites. I like, ⁓ yeah, so you can tell that you think about how to deliver short, crisp kind of messaging. ⁓ what about you?

speaker-1: Me, I loved her whole aspect of recognizing it wasn't just about being in a job with an employer or being on her own. She was the one who had to create the boundaries, kind of a little tangential to what you're saying. In order for her to find the joy, she had to give herself permission. And that's when the joy became created in everything she was doing. And I think it unleashed her joy at work as well, right? So I think it's a good lesson for all of us because we talk about how. Finding joy beyond your job is not about quiet quitting. It's not about I gotta go somewhere on a mountain first and then I'm gonna be happy. It's about being happy in the moment and really finding that deep well of joy and experiencing, which is something we can do every day.

speaker-0: Absolutely. And in a way, she ties it back to something that Ian said about luck, right? Like her business colleagues saying, actually you'd be really good at this. Let's do it together. And that being like open to that kind of lucky opening and just running what through it.

speaker-1: Kind of like how we started this podcast. Same. So that is it for this show. Thanks everybody for stopping in and listening. You can hear us on YouTube at youtube.com at zest for more or you can find us wherever you listen to your podcast on both Apple and Spotify. That's it for this episode. Thank you so much. Have a great week. Bye-bye.

speaker-0: I don't like it. Thank you, bye!