Desperately Alone At the Top: Why Leaders Need a Bridge to Joy, Not Just a Ladder

Alison Woo: So Gwynne, what do you think?

Gwynne Oosterbaan: deep and it kind of was like reliving so much of that intensive first coaching program I did with her. It was fantastic, but brought a lot back. And one of the things we thought some of our listeners might be interested in is how do you go about finding a coach or maybe you also want to become a coach because it's a field that's really exploded in the last few years. And it's a field that's also kind of got a lot of different on-ramps. There's no one right way. A really good baseline, however, to kind of get started and investigate and learn more about the space is through the International Coaching Federation. We'll put their website in the show notes. One other idea, just kind of the path that I took and Alison took is through business schools. ⁓ did the UC Berkeley Business School Program. There are lots and lots of others. just to name a few, and in our backyard as we are in Pennsylvania, Wharton has one, Columbia has one, has one. There are loads of different options, so Google away for that. But Alison you also spent some time in the coaching world. What are your ideas? Alison, thank you for joining us. I'm going to just tell everyone a little bit about your background and then we're going to dive in. Alison Godfrey, which in this conversation will do Alison G, is a seasoned leadership and executive coach.

Alison Woo: Well, I'm a big fan of asking others who know about coaches what their experience has been. It's a great way to find out, you know, if your chemistry would fit. A lot of coaches offer, you know, complimentary coach sessions. You can also look at LinkedIn. And I think the last piece, and this is something if your organization is large enough and it could be part of your development for your own role, you should definitely check in with either your HR business partner or your manager.

Gwynne Oosterbaan: This is a path that she took after spending several decades founding and leading startups in a host of different sectors, healthcare, energy, and technology. Her passion projects when she wasn't doing that or being a coach include being the former owner of a horse farm was a very competitive and successful equestrian doing that. She loves to travel the world and she's very close to her children and grandchildren. are great suggestions, right? There's no one way and that's ⁓ what coaching reminds us There's no one right way to find zest and there's no one right way to find a coach. I met Alison when she was an instructor at UC Berkeley's Business School, has an executive coaching institute, and she also now runs her own executive coaching firm where she coaches of executives and founders and entrepreneurs as well as their teams. Thank you so much Alison for joining us.

Alison Woo: So true. So that wraps up today's show. If you want to learn more, please log on to zestformore.com or you can subscribe on Apple or Spotify, wherever you listen to your podcasts.

Gwynne Oosterbaan: Thanks again. Till next time.

Alison Godfrey: ⁓ thank you so much for inviting me. I'm so excited to be here and talk with the two of you.

Alison Woo: Bye. ⁓ being a podcast host, we also listen to a lot of podcasts. And one of my favorite is Diary of a CEO with Steve Bartlett. ⁓ he talks a lot about CEO energy and that there are two different types of CEOs. There's the CEO that 98 % of them are, which are keeping the wheels on track, right? then 2% are founders and CEOs. ⁓ And he talks about the kind of passion and guts they have. ⁓ So first foremost, I have ask you, what was it like to be a founder and CEO?

Alison Godfrey: It was having no fear of jumping off a cliff every day. That really is what it felt like. ⁓ needed to be by people that ⁓ would look for what can go wrong because I won't do

Alison Woo: How did you transmit that to your senior leadership team? did you say to them to make know that that was your expectation of them? ⁓

Alison Godfrey: It wasn't in the forefront of my mind until I learned about how different people perceive the same situation that you're in. It really after I became a coach where I I am not afraid of change. And this came up by being very ⁓ aware that other people really at protecting the future. I'm not. Don't put me ⁓ in other than brainstorming sessions. Ta-da! ⁓ And then everybody starts talking about whether or not that's going to work, you want me in the room. Let's look at why will

Alison Woo: What was it that you made you so fearless? Do you think it was like your equestrian background? Because ⁓ not a lot of people say that they're not afraid of change and not afraid to leap forward.

Alison Godfrey: I think what really did it was when I went from corporate to entrepreneur I had to create my way of doing things and that nothing was going to kill me. I disappoint me, I'm gonna turn out the way I want, but fearless to try it.

Gwynne Oosterbaan: Welcome to the Zest for More podcast.

Alison Woo: where we are all about finding joy beyond your job. Those provocative questions at the very beginning of our podcast really sit at the heart of why we created this.

Gwynne Oosterbaan: I'm Gwynne Oosterbaan

Alison Woo: And I'm Alison Woo our first few episodes brought you conversations with people who found a way to live fully while engaging their passions.

Gwynne Oosterbaan: And in today's conversation, we're taking a little bit of a different tack. We're talking to someone who helps other people find their zest and figure out what their passion is. We're going be talking to Alison Godfrey, a seasoned leadership coach, and she's going explore more about how she does that with her clients.

Alison Woo: I love that.

Gwynne Oosterbaan: So get to sort of knit that comment about being fearless to coaching. How did that translate from feeling like you were on the edge of the cliff, as you said, to ⁓ ⁓ listening ⁓ inquiring of other people, what was motivating or driving them? So just can you tell us a little bit about how you made the switch and the transition?

Alison Woo: and you'll hear more about how she's helping individuals at every stage of their career and why there's no better time than now for all of us to start and continue asking these questions.

Alison Godfrey: The switch to being a coach me ⁓ look style. Before that point, being a Jersey girl and in your face was my definition of being honest. And what happened was because of coaching, training, I finally figured out that that is a style of being honest. that you can be honest in very many different ways while always being authentic. And I was therefore able to myself back to where I wanted to be as a coach, which was deep listening, ⁓ for the other person, ⁓ still being able to say, I'm a trend here. You've got to tell me whether or not I'm right. But, and then ⁓ say it is and not afraid to do so because it might be something that the other person ⁓ hasn't seen pattern. And be an aha moment, it could be upsetting. There be an emotional reaction you have to deal with, but that's okay. We're human.

Gwynne Oosterbaan: When did you, what was your aha moment? Like when did you realize that you didn't wanna be running a company or founding yet another kind of new initiative or project? did you make that change?

Alison Godfrey: Bill Gates shut the laboratory that I was running. And so I had to do something. And simultaneously, I was asked by Berkeley, Mark Rittenberg, to teach executive MBA candidates. Oh, leadership and communication. Okay. No, I didn't look at that as a

Gwynne Oosterbaan: Mmm.

Alison Godfrey: switch in my profession. Just, oh, that's interesting. I've never taught before. Okay, I'll jump off that cliff. And then, oh, this is how you teach. He did some teaching about this is how you need to show up and this is what it's like and presenting the message. The second phase of that, now we're in COVID, was just two months later. the Berkeley Coaching Institute asking me if I would coach online to train other people to be coaches. yes, of course I'll do that ⁓ there's another cliff I'm gonna jump off of. Yeah, that sounds like fun. And part of that, all of a sudden my identity changed and I became a coach and I got it.

Gwynne Oosterbaan: It's so cool that Berkeley was willing to jump with you.

Alison Godfrey: Right. I think ⁓ what that was about is that they trusted my experience as an entrepreneur ⁓ being a CEO with Bill Gates, that I had a standard of business excellence. So that speaking to other leaders to become coaches, what that really meant and how to change as a leader by becoming a leader's coach.

Gwynne Oosterbaan: ⁓ how ⁓ do people like come to find a coach? Like you didn't even to a coach when you were a CEO in that journey. What usually drives people to want to find a coach?

Alison Godfrey: Thank What I have found is that there's either a state of being desperately alone top leadership positions because it's inappropriate to have most of those conversations ⁓ somebody inside the company. You create unnecessary ⁓ fear your leader is talking about their fears. Then the next thing that drives people into coaching is, want more life. I want more from my job. I am not personally What is going on here? Because up until now, I've been great. Those are the two main areas.

Alison Woo: can you talk about your experience in coaching people who were maybe more at the manager or director level? So like coaching isn't only just senior leaders.

Alison Godfrey: ⁓ definitely. And thank you, Alison, for question. absolutely true. Because ⁓ that in ⁓ does even look like? What are we talking about? That you want to grow, but grow where? Grow how? Look at senior leaders. What are they doing? Look at your peers. How is communication? What are we even talking about when we say things like executive presence? What is that?

Alison Woo: Yeah, think a lot of people, at least I personally felt like there was an aspect that you had to tamp down your personality to fit whatever the culture was of the organization. And I think that's a real struggle, especially for women, especially for people who are coming from non-corporate environments, right? They didn't have any parents or things to model. They may be first generation people. So it can be very ⁓ daunting to try to figure out how you're maneuvering this path. And it's not always up the ladder. Many times.

Alison Godfrey: Mm.

Alison Woo: it's a cross.

Alison Godfrey: ⁓ great point. Yes. Across is sphere of influence. that you can't be looking up because that pyramid gets pretty tight and there won't always be a promotion. So why are you working? What turns you on? What are you doing here? And leads to looking cross-functionally. How can help this organization move forward beyond your ⁓ role?

Alison Woo: have you noticed that work issues ⁓ are related to issues and vice versa? can you about how the way a person sees themself or something they're dealing with ⁓ actually transcends ⁓ beyond work?

Alison Godfrey: What I'm seeing ⁓ my wherever they are is a with identity. So who ⁓ am gets with what do I do? as opposed to who am I as a whole person. And getting to that point where life outside work is life. We do this life concentration in ourselves, you know, one is personal life, then we have business life. You get one life. You don't get two. You get one. And where are you putting your effort? And I do a lot of deathbed conversations. What do you want to say about yourself?

Gwynne Oosterbaan: Alison, were with me and coaching me when I actually had to say goodbye to my father. And there were lots of moments that I had in my conversations with you. ⁓ how you help people? Or maybe is this kind of very stark proposition of what do you want to say your legacy is that that framing of your deathbed conversation?

Alison Godfrey: happens for most where they're not even thinking about it. And ⁓ the questions, even what you want people to say about you when you leave the room? And the depth of that answer ⁓ leads those kinds of conversations. I just had a client. who I've worked with for over a year, know all about this person's family. And just yesterday, this person said to me, oh, by the way, I didn't tell you, but I think I'm going to get a divorce. What? Wait a minute. You didn't say a word about having problems at home. And... It brought out a huge, deep conversation about hiding those emotions behind work. So this person didn't have to deal with what was really upsetting. So we separate our worlds, two different boxes. I'm just going to be over here and work. And I said, not when you're coaching with me, you're not. We're going to talk about this.

Alison Woo: Yeah, that level of emotional readiness though really deep and profound, right? That someone has to come to it. ⁓ I think a lot of times you talked a little bit about overwork, people also sometimes are just frozen ⁓ what they're doing. How would you suggest if someone is finding themselves in that space, how do you suggest they help break themselves out of that?

Alison Godfrey: I go to your physiology first. So you're going to fight, run away, flight, or freeze. Those are your only choices. They don't come from your brain. They come from your physiology because in the moment you are overwhelmed. And then you think you are making a choice when actually chemically your brain is scrambled. You really can't make a clear decision at that point in time. So the first thing is figuring out when that happens you can stop and not react. Get to know yourself. Self-awareness is ⁓ paired with self-regulation. so that you can stop before you react.

Alison Woo: And how do you develop that? Is that a muscle? Can people get that?

Alison Godfrey: ⁓ definitely. know for me, without coached, I ⁓ don't that I was going to get there. And that's bridge that coaching brings to the future.

Alison Woo: Some people avoid coaching because they feel like there's a bit of a stigma. Certainly Gwynne and I know some people who have kind of rebuffed a bit about that thinking, well, I don't want to say that something's wrong with me. I don't think anything's wrong with me. Can you just address that and also just briefly talk about the difference of coaching versus therapy? Because there is a difference.

Alison Godfrey: ⁓ absolutely. The coaching versus therapy, I like to use what the example Berkeley gives. And what the way Berkeley phrases it is that therapy ⁓ ⁓ archaeology. We're going to dig deep. We're going to see what happened in the past. We're going to deal with those emotions now because they're still affecting you. In the meantime, you've got coach and the coach goes, whoa scrambled up waters. Are you working with a therapist? They're going to find out what support you have. And then I can't help you those turbulent waters. I can't go deep with you as a coach. My job is architecture. We are going to build a bridge ⁓ the turbulent waters without dealing with those emotions, because I'm not qualified to do that. ⁓ we're going to go forward into ⁓ would life ⁓ like if. I waved a magic wand and we're in the future. What would that be?

Gwynne Oosterbaan: ⁓ what do you get from your coach in terms of is it your bridge to your future or is it just your bridge the day?

Alison Godfrey: Well, that is something I really had to learn to not be drained. And it came at my aha moment was the difference between compassion and empathy. that if I go into ⁓ ⁓ the individual I'm coaching, I've taken on all their pain and I can ⁓ feel what they are feeling and that destabilizes ⁓ And it's very draining.

Gwynne Oosterbaan: What about joy? We're trying to explore joy and how we find it. And you've shared some anecdotes with me where you were when you're coaching someone or a group of someones that they actually bring you joy because of asking them that question. Is there anything that you I know you have a little visual cue

Alison Godfrey: Anyway. Sure. This is a miniature ⁓ duck. I introduced to this by another coach. And she said that one of the things she does is carry these little ducks around. And I have started to do it. So you get a coffee at Starbucks, you just put a little duck through the window. getting groceries, put a little duck on the counter. People go crazy and they name their ducks then other people come up, I want one, I want one. It is the joy of watching the joy in another person where you would be thoughtful enough to do something to make them smile. And that is my full... ⁓ also ⁓ coaching. I do this because it moves people forward in their lives. It's And coaching isn't about being punished. It's about moving forward and growing. And what else could I do? Where am needed? And what is most ⁓ valuable response I have right now to help the people I'm with? It's great.

Alison Woo: one of the skills you clearly have and that ⁓ we, all of can all develop more is about deep listening, right? And really being present. And I'm wondering, even one doesn't have an official coach, do you have any guidance or advice on how people can be more present and listen more deeply to the conversations they're having?

Alison Godfrey: listening more deeply and being present. Believe it or not, Steve Jobs, who isn't known for this, ⁓ said, what you have to do is stop listening to the noise. And hit ⁓ so for me because in business, the noise is typically the emotional reactions that people are having. the noise will also be ⁓ people are fighting ⁓ the room about how and the what, when actually they're not even aligned on the goal. That is much what would say to somebody. Number one, ⁓ are aligned on the goal? Stop fighting about the how and the what? Because you both want to get somewhere. You want to go to the same place. Personal life and business. And then ⁓ the thing is identify the noise versus what's the point. What are we really talking about without that emotional overlay? And that can go for personal life and business life. That's we are as a whole.

Alison Woo: That's hard. Don't you think putting your emotions on pause or at least modifying it? So the Buddhists, you know, do a lot of study on the mind so that you can at least to some degree compartmentalize. I don't think they'd use that word, but understand where your mind chatter is happening versus the emotional response, right? In today's world that feels very chaotic, everything is happening so fast, what your guidance be to listeners who are saying, I don't know how to do that. I don't know how to those emotions on pause.

Alison Godfrey: Yeah. Because if you try to put your emotions on pause, you miss what your body is doing. Your body is reacting way before your brain. So instead of how do I put my emotions on pause, it is what's happening in my body. Where am I feeling this? Identify this tension for me. So not in the stomach. Other people feel it in their neck. You will feel it somewhere.

Gwynne Oosterbaan: Hmm.

Alison Godfrey: So instead of trying to think yourself through it, you're going to have to let your body lead you through it. What does my body need right now to disengage? And that may be, I need a few minutes. Just pause it. Wait, why am I talking? W-A-I-T. Stop. Just stop. Go back into your body. You are allowed to pause. You are allowed to hold silence in a room. First and foremost, that self-regulation is about your body. That's where it starts. Your mind will come right with you. But don't try to overcome your body with your mind. That's not how it works.

Gwynne Oosterbaan: This might be one of reasons why people who are technologists and I know you spent your fair share, Alison, in technology companies, like the rise of AI and the threat of job change and we add to it all the complexities that we bring. Does that just further the case for doing more and more more tasks need to be under AI? how do you talk about this issue of our human intelligence like our positives versus the ⁓ kind of AI worst-case scenarios and I'm not I'm just using that as an exaggerated example. I'm not saying I'm making that case, but I'm curious how people their concerns or excitement about it.

Alison Godfrey: sure. That was great. I see is that the people I'm coaching are worried about entry-level or just above that that might be ⁓ more tasks and AI right now can do those. And so what we're dealing with ⁓ is do you help somebody train for a position that only a human can do? And AI has no consciousness. You can ask it those questions, it'll answer. But that's not real human consciousness. So ⁓ leveling, what only humans bring to the table for our corporation to be better? ⁓ AI not going to do cross-functional alignment for you. You have to do that.

Gwynne Oosterbaan: No. ⁓

Alison Godfrey: You have to do everything that requires relationship with another human being. Now, I'm not, I don't mean to diss the entire engineering population out there because those are different things. you have to appreciate as a human what wisdom means. You don't have to be 90 years old to be wise. You need experience to be wise. and it's paying attention to that growth and what that looks like and how it makes a difference and what's important, what isn't important. Those priorities can't be set by AI. You have to know your environment really well. And so that's one side of the response. The other side was what's the extreme? And the extreme would be AI can do everything. Well, if we ever got there, that means that none of us have to actually perform jobs to make our world society better or to earn money ourselves. That there's been a completely new system. Well, that's kind of DreamWorks. You that's one of those questions. Who are What brings you joy? And what if you only ⁓ had to that?

Alison Woo: do you think about this trend of... more coaches? you think, like what do think that's going to, how's that going to impact human capital, the way we think about things? Do you see this as a good trend or what are the benefits?

Alison Godfrey: I think the benefit of having more coaches available allowing more people to have access to coaching. And that is a wonderful, ⁓ thing for our society and the world.

Gwynne Oosterbaan: the subtitle our podcast is joy and job. So could you just share briefly about like, do you think it's compatible to have this like high pressure, very demanding job and joy your life?

Alison Godfrey: Without joy in your life, what are you doing? are doing and why are you doing it? what is meaning of life? What's the purpose? Why I out of bed every morning? Without joy in your life, what are you doing? are doing and why are you doing it? ⁓ what the meaning of life? What's the purpose? do get out of bed every morning? Does it bring me fulfillment and joy or am I doing this because I have to? I have to support my family and I'm not sure I can get another job. Okay, that's fine. What else is in your life that does bring you joy? If you can't get joy from your job, what else can you be doing to bring joy in? It doesn't all have to come from the same source.

Gwynne Oosterbaan: Love that. Alison Woo who will final question about finding joy for Alice and Godfrey

Alison Woo: Now I'm so just, yes, I was just going to say, Alison, what is your path to finding joy? What else? Tell us what else fills your life with joy.

Alison Godfrey: got a passion for travel that ⁓ ⁓ just love other places, even if I've seen them before. Another passion that, I a really wonderful human to ⁓ marry and ⁓ he's some but reframed it ⁓ how can I best show my love? And all of a sudden, all the stuff that I hate about caregiving went away. It was beautiful. grandchildren, I guess I have to mention them because if I just said my grandchildren, they'd probably be pissed off. So add my children. But those five little kids, ⁓ my word, I love that. My cats, my fireplace, my new toilet. Those are my points of joy. My clients, my friends, coaches, I mean, can just, there's so much that that's why I get out of bed in the morning. I love my life.

Alison Woo: What a great, that's the real joy in being able to say that, right? No matter ⁓ you are, what you're doing, and who you are. So thank you. ⁓

Alison Godfrey: Yeah.

Alison Woo: Alison, where can catch up with you and learn more about your work and what you do?

Alison Godfrey: Either ⁓ my email, alisonagodfrey @ gmail.com or through LinkedIn.

Alison Woo: Thank so very much, Alison, for joining us. We are ⁓ thrilled you were able to share your insights with us. So valuable.

Alison Godfrey: Thank you so much for having me. This has been delightful.

Gwynne Oosterbaan: Thank you. ⁓

Alison Godfrey: Always thank you. Bye bye.