Sensibility and Strategy: Discovering Joy through Jane Austen, the Law, and Legos

Alison Woo: Welcome to the Zest For More podcast.

Gwynne Oosterbaan: where we are all about finding the joy beyond your job.

Alison Woo: I'm Alison Woo

Gwynne Oosterbaan: and I'm Gwynne Oosterbaan

Alison Woo: We are two former communications colleagues and friends ⁓ who found ourselves a lot of the same questions. ⁓

Gwynne Oosterbaan: Like, what else are we doing besides working and making our way through the grind every day, every week, every month? could you even be able to ask yourselves, what am I doing outside of my job?

Alison Woo: So we're dedicating this podcast to talk to others who've also been asking these same questions.

Gwynne Oosterbaan: when I decided to become a certified coach to help other people and myself figure out some of those questions, we really wanted to dive into these kinds of things. our guest today is someone who really exemplifies how do you pursue your passion and have a really successful career ⁓ and keep expanding your passion list.

Alison Woo: Well, I have to say that of all the very many people I know, he is the first person who comes to mind. So Paul Savidge is a real Renaissance man. And while by day, is absolutely one of the most respected professionals, a skilled lawyer, and the former general counsel at major healthcare companies. But even while he was doing all of that, he was juggling massive responsibilities. has just created a life for himself that really became a North Star for me. ⁓ actually has passions for ⁓ ⁓ Jane Austen, very close to my heart, and Lego. ⁓ we're very excited to have Paul Savidge join our podcast. Paul, welcome to the show. ⁓

Paul Savidge: Very pleased to be here. Thanks for inviting me.

Gwynne Oosterbaan: You bet. right, Paul, I get the first question. I'd love to know with such a wide range of different kinds of interests, like the Lego to Jane Austen spectrum is kind of long, long for me to do this. How did you actually like, you know, have them fit together? ⁓ then what do you get out of either each of them or the combination of them? ⁓

Paul Savidge: Okay. Yeah, well that's interesting. I think there are general connections to them. Maybe ⁓ is little bit farther afield. but not entirely. I think these are all creative pursuits, things that, and I think they're things that had their genesis when I was relatively young and things that I felt very strongly about and just continued through my life and found ⁓ to continue to explore them and enjoy them. and Jane Austen have a direct connection. ⁓ Austen is, ⁓ well, until recently it was thought of being the first novelist to mention the word baseball, but we've now found out that actually her cousin published a book several before she did about it. ⁓ So is a connection there. But yeah, are things that I began being interested in and playing Little League and ⁓ then that of morphed into an interest in just the ⁓ history of and baseball statistics and things like this.

Gwynne Oosterbaan: Really?

Paul Savidge: And then architecture was something I actually considered a career in architecture as a young guy, like building models and Lego was certainly related to that. I wouldn't consider Lego really a passion. more of a, it's actually something that a great hobby that ⁓ provided a lot of, a lot of enjoyment, still provides a lot of enjoyment, but, kind of a stress reliever too as well. So, but they all, that kind of.

Gwynne Oosterbaan: Can I just ask really quickly, how often are you doing Lego?

Paul Savidge: How often? I did a lot of Lego during the pandemic and I have more, so many sets that now I'm trying to figure out what to do with all of them, but, and you need space to store them. I, you know, I'm working on one typically. all the time. and then, you know, it's one of these things where you'll find out you have an interest in it and then they, they, they buy them for you. Right. So I, I can't, so I'm lucky about that. So, but I have enjoyed it. I just saw the new book. I think a new book has just been published or a book is coming out about adults who, you know, pursue Lego. I have a very good friend who worked with me. at my last company, she also had a great interest in Lego and Lego shows and things like this. So there's a lot of adults who pursue Lego either with their children or I'm having fun with one of them, right? Right, it's nice. But I've had Lego sets since I was a very young child.

Gwynne Oosterbaan: I'm married to one of them.

Alison Woo: Well, you and I, met professionally, but I think it was our second conversation when we met that we both discovered that we had a passion for Jane Austen. And actually, was a very controversial moment because I think, as I recall, I made you say which were your favorite two books, which you're welcome to share here on the record. What are your two favorite Austen novels? Or what are your favorite Austen novels? Yeah.

Paul Savidge: Awesome. You know, it's the number one question that the Austen community asks members all the time. It's choosing among children. They're all right? So if you haven't, if you're out there and you haven't read them, if you haven't read them, then I think, wow, you're lucky because you have a real treat in store. But I'm very, I'm very fond of Mansfield Park, which is book that her novel probably is least read. ⁓ It's a more complicated but a lot of humor there as well. Has a heroine that is It's not as luminous as some of the others. But I guess if I had to go off on the desert island and just choose one, would take Pride and Prejudice because to me, it does have the most humor and the one I think people read over and over again, but they're all good. mean, Emma is a brilliant novel. lot of people as they get older, they like Persuasion because it deals with more mature love, though mature in that book is like 27, right? Late 20s. But yeah, they're all good. Austen really provides a lot of enjoyment. For me and a lot of other people, she's really been popular for a very, very long time and for good reason. She gives a lot of insight into humanity and people still, even though her novels were written in early 19th century, they're still very relevant today

Gwynne Oosterbaan: I'm going to pick up on the Austen theme, which I am also a huge devotee of, but switch it up because I just discovered when Paul and I were chatting a moment ago that he, like me, studied Russian stuff, literature primarily and in oral history and politics thrown in. we were bonding over our favorite Russian novels. So I just want to ask you, how did you, what order did you read heavy duty Russian ⁓ the light but very deep?

Paul Savidge: and Yeah.

Gwynne Oosterbaan: Jane Austen and how do you see them intersecting and then how does it help you think about the world we live in today?

Paul Savidge: Yeah, well, that's last question, the really deep one, right? I think in some ways, classic literature, would say starting with that first, I think classic literature allows us to continue to think that there are things that we can hold on to continuously, right? That they survive the ups and downs of political and social life, and they still are relevant. So think there's a lot of just joy in that. I think classic literature allows us to continue to think that there are things that we can hold on to continuously, right? That they survive the ups and downs of political and social life, and they still are relevant. So think there's a lot of just joy in that. satisfaction and comfort in that. satisfaction and comfort in that. in middle school and eighth grade, I began to read a lot and had a real strong interest in the Soviet Union at the time. And so started reading Russian literature, Dostoevsky in particular. So I read that first and my mother who had been a school teacher was a great reader ⁓ after reading Brothers Karamazov and Crime and Punishment and feeling, wow, they be much better than this. ⁓ And helped me with reading them too, know, kind of making lists of characters so I can remember who they were. And we, ⁓ that's what she said, well, why don't we read a novel from of my favorite authors, Jane Austen, who I don't think I'd ever heard of. And so we read, read of all things, of Sensibility, because I don't think it's the easiest novel to get into, but that's the one she liked. So we read that and then. So that opened me to Austen and got to read another novel, Pride and Prejudice in high school and then others. I think my favorite, you know, we're talking about favorite novels and things like this, which is also very difficult. So it's like what's your favorite movie. I really, I really love Anna Karenina and maybe that it would be my favorite novel even more than. I'm sure the Austen people may see this, but they'll hate me. But even more than any of the Austen novels, which I also apprised, but literature is just great. But yeah, so that's my interest there. And that interest has directly affected my career path. Because when Merck, I was just working in the US group, and they said, we have a job in Eastern Europe. Anyone interested? And I raised my hand. I said, well, I live there for a period of time. to go so it was great great experience.

Alison Woo: can't believe that I'm just learning now that your mom was a teacher. So of course that influenced your love of literature. How amazing. My grandmother was a teacher and even though my mom didn't become a teacher, she very much followed and espoused those ideals, right, of introducing young people to literature very early as well. So shout out to all the teachers first and foremost who make such an outlasting impact on all of our lives. I would say that having

Paul Savidge: Yeah, it was. Yeah, fourth grade. By the way, and just to that, mean, think that you want to inspire reading in children, you read yourself, right? ⁓ like everything else, examples. People who children who are great violinists, music was of their lives often, you see this. Yeah, so anyway, sorry to interrupt you. ⁓

Alison Woo: That's true. No, but it's right. The people who are closest to us are the ones who really support our passions. So to that end, kind of support do you have and does it take for you to do all of these passions? Because you don't live in a vacuum, obviously.

Paul Savidge: Well, I mean, again, I was, I think I always had a lot of interest. I was always very motivated by people. think that makes you an extrovert. I think I've learned. So I was always interested in meeting people and talking to people and learning about beyond my own little suburban environment. and And so that is something also that I carried throughout life. And when you meet people and you learn their stories, then you also learn about their interests. And I think it also challenges your own thoughts about so many things, right? You think you understand everything very well. I thought maybe when I was in high school that I understood the world, you know, at 17 or 16, and then you go and live in... Belgrade and you realize that people have an entire different worldview and gosh, maybe they're not wrong, right? Maybe there's something here. So for me, just being someone who always just naturally was interested in lots of different things. It would have been much more difficult for me to give them up than to continue to embrace them and look for things as part of my job that allowed me to continue them and making time as well for them. But again, trying to create professional career that also ⁓ kind of my natural inclinations in travel and people and like this.

Gwynne Oosterbaan: I guess my question is going to be around how do you integrate them? So you're a lawyer, you worked at a lot of different pharma companies, you mentioned your time overseas at Merck. How you integrate it into the day part of your job? So I get ⁓ everything just said because it was very similar. But ⁓ I'm how does it help you ⁓ think a lawyer or solve legal problems?

Paul Savidge: Yeah.

Gwynne Oosterbaan: or if they're not related and they're just like your antidote, it'd be great to hear that.

Paul Savidge: Well, you know, yeah. Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, I think that the legal profession is really ultimately a service profession where you're trying to understand the challenges of the client, challenges of the business. ⁓ ⁓ worked for a law firm ⁓ DC for a while ⁓ then ⁓ to in-house work. And I really ⁓ the in-house work mostly because it was about solving business ⁓ and the you had being in-house and seeing them through. I think all of the experiences and exposures I had were helpful to me. ⁓ had roles ⁓ in several these companies and just being sensitive ⁓ to cultural and differences and also to leave judgment aside as well. It's very easy to be dogmatic and if you only understand one thing. I think having... interests I had that were ⁓ and international were very, ⁓ helpful in of of my job. And also having lead ⁓ people from different ⁓ and inspire people different places also requires to have a bigger ⁓ worldview a lot of humility too. because you can really make missteps and otherwise. So yeah, I think they did. then, and of course, by the way, having interests, another thing is ⁓ the profession is also very helpful because it's a good icebreaker too. ⁓ if you have, if there's more to you than just the, they understand you professionally, it really makes conversation much better and asking people, ⁓ you what do you do and what kind of interests you have. ⁓ talking about your interests and you can just made I think meeting people and stronger ties with people that much easier.

Alison Woo: I couldn't agree more, especially since one of our first conversations was all about baseball. Now, of course, as a New Yorker and a lifelong Yankees, sometimes Mets fan, New Yorkers are just fans of winning, really, let's be clear. couldn't imagine there was somebody else who loved other teams, like the ⁓

Paul Savidge: Thank you. Yeah.

Gwynne Oosterbaan: Yeah.

Paul Savidge: I like the shirt. ⁓

Alison Woo: Right? So it's interesting actually, and because you and I have become friends, I've also been known to do things that go to baseball school, where the Phillies do, doing a marvelous new job, right? And bring this back. But what's, what is your attachment to baseball? Why do you love it as a game, as a strategy?

Paul Savidge: Yeah, yeah, I you did. Right, right, right. I have no idea. I mean, it goes back to like a lot of... stories that people will tell, know, watching baseball with my dad, going to a Phillies game at five and just being mesmerized by the whole thing. And it was something that he very attached to. And then ⁓ the little league experience, which was ⁓ really ⁓ And I have spent an inordinate amount of time in my life. ⁓ you know, now mostly watching baseball and have a real, real attachment to it. And of course, baseball is a very American, mostly a very American thing. We are now a very, a very good book was written recently about the, the growth and the rise and fall of English baseball, which kind of is connected to Jane Austen too. Cause why is she mentioning baseball? back in the early 1800s, mostly American pastime. But yeah, so I really, and then I, now I am working for the... Baltimore Orioles, not the Phillies, but the Baltimore Orioles down here in Florida for spring training. ⁓ I get to do that as a job now, ⁓ is always one of my, my dream was to be the general counsel of the Phillies. That did not happen. ⁓ now get at least to be an usher ⁓ for Orioles ⁓ in training ⁓ and outside. ⁓ that's, nice. And meet a lot of really great, great, interesting people to share my interest in baseball. ⁓

Gwynne Oosterbaan: see that O's cup again, Paul, just like the visual. You had it a minute ago.

Paul Savidge: Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah. And by the way, I have to say, maybe this is going to be weird to ask me, but a year ago, I decided to move on from my professional career, a long career as a lawyer. having these interests certainly made the transition that much easier because there were things that I could just move to. And now I'm dedicated. Like a lot of people who move on, I don't like using the R word, the retire word. it sounds so sleepy, it just really allows that to happen. So naturally now I'm spending a lot of time doing nonprofit work through organizations that are involved in my interests. The baseball job is a nice paying job, but ⁓ it's not obviously, I'm ⁓ very involved in the Austen Society of North America now. I get to sit on their board of directors and we're doing all kinds of great things, a very large organization, an expanding organization, and then very involved in the historic preservation of modernist architecture community as well through nonprofit. And that was all kind of set up because I had continued these interests throughout my life.

Gwynne Oosterbaan: how would you advise someone who's only just starting to give permission to think about doing more than their job?

Paul Savidge: Yeah, I mean, listen, I don't want to, no Pollyanna, some of the jobs I have are very demanding and there were times where I wasn't able to pursue the interests as strong as I want to. That's a trade off, right? You have an obligation to your employer and I wanted to do a good job and I enjoyed those jobs too. So I don't want to dismiss that, but it's like everything else. You just have to make time, right? It just becomes, has to be a priority, you your own. You don't want to be too single-minded about anything. I actually think it serves you professionally as well to have interests and try to be an interesting person and interested in people. So I think that if you can... You know, some people I've had discussions mentoring people, they have difficult time even identifying something that they really feel strongly about. Part of that is too, let's just be honest about it, they've been busy with their job, but they've also been busy raising children sometimes. And that is their interest, right? And the interests of their children. And I recognize that. But I think that should set time for yourself. And a lot of people do that through physical pro's and things like this. But ⁓ give time to explore new things. And I think people who can do that, once they've decided to make a transition, will find the transition easier. ⁓ Because I know some people who really have hard time letting go because their identities are so wrapped up in in one thing and that's okay to have be attached to the professional side of your life. It's very good in fact, but it's better ⁓ if you have something that you say I can I can do this now and not just one thing

Alison Woo: Well, architecture and travel, of course, is also an interest, both you and your wonderful husband, Danny. You know, he's just tremendous support in helping you ⁓ both of you create this amazing, amazing life. Couldn't forward without, you know, thanking him for his immense contribution. ⁓ But you're somebody who also made yourself available to not only people, but also you being mentored and supported to get to where you are. ⁓ Could you a little bit about like what

Paul Savidge: Yes. ⁓ Mm-hmm.

Alison Woo: the value is that for people who have been going forward in their lives and think, well, how can I get support? How does that work? Would that help me? How has that helped you?

Paul Savidge: Oh, it helped me a lot. mean, yes, I look back and think of the, um, about my career and, the, uh, and the choices that I had to make. And I'm, I'm a firm believer and Alison knows this, but I'm a firm believer that there's not one perfect, there's no one right path, right? You just get to choose among the good things. So I, I, I could have been satisfied, um, professionally, lots of different, different ways. I believe I was very fortunate. I, I made some, some good choices and some not so good, but they. were all satisfying. But all along the way, what helped me ⁓ understanding these choices were having ⁓ good ⁓ and the guidance from some really terrific people.

Alison Woo: Actually, just a follow-up question here because you have also done something very specific with your team that has been really exemplary. You have been a sponsor of many individuals and a lot of individuals who were not necessarily would have been considered for positions of seniority or authority in various places, not just on your own team. So just a word of advice if you could give to people who are managers of people out there who do have the opportunity to step up and be sponsors. What would you say to them to encourage them to do so?

Paul Savidge: thank you for recognizing that. have ⁓ I have hired people that maybe weren't the most obvious candidates, but they had they had ⁓ strong skills and energy in the right direction. And think that a mistake you make in those ⁓ situations is not giving them the support that they if they're transitioning to something that is relatively new is new for them. But ⁓ I always think that you need to take stock of your own and your own capabilities. And sometimes people come to me and say, my career seems to just not be going anywhere. And ⁓ first thing we talk about is ⁓ are ⁓ strengths? What are their strong capabilities? What are their interests? And to move in those directions. I'm a firm believer in moving ⁓ your. ⁓ towards your skills and your interests as opposed to doing that are, you people say, I'm not good with numbers. I think I'll go into the, ⁓ you know, an accountant or something like that. That to me doesn't make much sense. But it's very satisfying to be someone who can support people as they progress through their careers. I got a lot of happiness out of it.

Gwynne Oosterbaan: maybe I can just jump in with a kind of wrap up on the career reflections and ask you about what kept you in healthcare for so long or far more specifically either one because you've talked around it but I was just wondering if you wouldn't mind talking to it.

Paul Savidge: year. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, but that's, yeah, it's quite, it's actually an easy answer for me. I found in, ⁓ in the pharmaceutical industry, the healthcare industry, just, very, very large group of very smart ⁓ interesting people, no matter you were in the organization. from the scientists to the lawyers to the commercial, the marketing organization, sales organization, the... patient advocacy groups, no matter where you were, there were a lot of really interesting and smart people doing a lot of very serious work. So the work itself is satisfying. There's a, in helping people some very serious illnesses. I ended up my career in gene therapy, which was extremely satisfying because that was entirely a new venture and required you to be very ⁓ and ⁓ So ⁓ me, pharmacy, and listen, there's probably other industries would do this, ⁓ pharmaceuticals when you can count on it, you're going to be working with a lot of very smart people who are trying to tackle some very difficult that's the organization too, in the commercial organization constrained by a lot of rules and regulations that are there to ⁓ protect public. And so you have to be a certain kind of, have a certain kind of savviness to in marketing there. ⁓ So so I think that's why, Gwynne I think I never, and I had opportunities a couple of times to leave and go into the consumer products and things like this, and I just ⁓ really feel, wasn't feeling So it was a, yeah, I no regrets about that. was a, it was great, great.

Alison Woo: Well, last and maybe the most important question of this entire ⁓ conversation, we are already officially in baseball season since spring training has started. What do you think? I'm wearing Phillies Red. Do think they're gonna go all the way this year?

Paul Savidge: Yeah. ⁓ goodness. I don't know. You're always hopeful. Everyone's hopeful every year. I know the Orioles are all helpful about having Pete Alonso on their team. ⁓ for the Phillies, yeah, mean, it could be they're bringing some young players up, some rookies. They're going have a chance to play. very exciting. has gotten a lot younger. The Phillies have tried to win it all with a group of veterans. We're keeping some of those. We've had some great veterans. But ⁓ yeah, hopeful. I'm hopeful. ⁓ And be rooting them on, even though the last couple of years have ended in disappointment. Everyone, it's spring. It's a time of optimism. And listen, look what happened in the Super Bowl this year. Two teams that no one thought ⁓ would compete in it. ⁓ We now have a new Super Bowl champ. So yeah, you never know. You never know in sports, but it's especially when you get some new talent in there. So it's going to be a good season. So I'm looking forward to that. Our first spring training game is a week from today. So that's exciting.

Alison Woo: Well, we're all Pennsylvania residents and there's like a little doctrine in there. You have to be a Phillies fan no matter what ever team you like before. That's true. Good point.

Paul Savidge: Well, not unless live in Western Pennsylvania and they're all Pirates fans, right? So let's give them the other part of the movie. I don't want to... Yeah, I'm sure, you know, and I actually lived in Pittsburgh for a little bit, so I don't want to give them the Yeah, there are two parts. Right. ⁓

Gwynne Oosterbaan: You Well, we're like East Coast stores. like, there's only one part of Pennsylvania. It's like a really small sliver. must be, we are very inclusive. And one day I'll make it to the ⁓ Water, Frank Lloyd Wright You give me the tips before I go. ⁓

Alison Woo: It's not L-N-E, right.

Paul Savidge: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's a great place. Sure, my pleasure. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you both. to see you. Yeah, that would have been nice. That would have been nice, certainly.

Alison Woo: It's wonderful. Paul, thanks so much for joining us. We really appreciate your insights.

Gwynne Oosterbaan: on the list. It was fantastic. I wish I had worked with you in one of those many jobs you had,

Alison Woo: So Gwynne, what do you think? It's always fun to talk to people who you know in a professional setting and then get a chance to know in a personal setting.

Gwynne Oosterbaan: I think it's like making dessert. I think these conversations are like the dessert part. It's like the top 10 hits. It's like, you you work really hard, your conversations with people every day, or like you get little snippets of things. And then this podcast is like the dessert version of all of your favorite exchanges with them. That's why I was thinking of dessert, but.

Alison Woo: How so? Mmm, what a nice way to put it.

Gwynne Oosterbaan: I used to joke with Ross about when would I have my dessert job? job that still paid everything, but it was mostly fun.

Alison Woo: Now just clarify for the listeners Ross was our boss who hired us big shout out Ross Wilkie and Gwynne was the basically the hardest conversation that if I was going to get the job that I wanted he was like talk to Gwynne she'll ask you hard questions if she says okay then you're in and I was like okay then we discovered we went to Columbia at the same time which at least ⁓ me feel less intimidated ⁓ you but were different schools I was in the journalism school

Gwynne Oosterbaan: Ross is our boss. But I think we compare notes on that, Alison, and then we also talked about singing. Somehow, either because one of my sons was kind of currently doing some choral stuff and it was top of mind, but then you talked about growing up in Queens and singing. Brooklyn, ⁓ my God, see, I got the, I got the, yeah, yeah, but we talked about singing and I was like, I love Alison.

Alison Woo: international. Brooklyn? Brooklyn. Don't worry, the Brooklyn people are coming for you, but keep going. It's amazing, know, while we work people in that world, it is personal moments that can give you ⁓ just a of who they are as human beings. Like we forget, we come to work, you know, with our skill set and our professionalism and all of that is wanted, ⁓ but it's humanity that people connect to.

Gwynne Oosterbaan: Yeah, and I think if you'd asked me what's the one... tidbit from that conversation with Paul that I'm going to really anchor on. It's definitely in the literature arena and how good literature helps you get through some of the harder times on a macro level. And, you know, these great novels Jane Austen or by Tolstoy ⁓ still have resonance. they remind us that when those were written, life wasn't very predictable or fun either. And ⁓ I just love ⁓ kind of big around time. ⁓ because ⁓ probably what he and I had miraculously common from ⁓ two people thought they were in a rope and be dibble hats. And ⁓ kind of steered us in other directions, both towards pharma.

Alison Woo: And this notion of having that freedom, especially in the time that we're in now, where there's a lot of uncertainty, there's a lot of chaos in the external world, and that is certainly mirrored by people, even in the internal places, no matter where you work, there's a lot of just, you know, people don't know what's going to happen next, and it is a good time to reach for some of those stalwarts that can help us through to the next spot. ⁓

Gwynne Oosterbaan: Yep. And hopefully some of these conversations are providing new glimpses of that for everybody else.

Alison Woo: So what you can look forward to hearing in future podcasts are with other people who some of whom we've worked with some of whom we haven't ⁓ who inspire us and who people who also give us even reason to zest for more So thanks everybody for listening. You can log on to zest for more comm to subscribe the podcast you'll also find us on Apple and on Spotify ⁓ and Everywhere want to be Gwynne, thanks for

Gwynne Oosterbaan: That's great.

Alison Woo: a great conversation.

Gwynne Oosterbaan: Thank you.